Q&A: Randy Couture says 'extraneous stuff' keeps Jon Jones from GOAT status

Three months shy of his 60th birthday, UFC Hall of Famer Randy Couture is thriving.

Couture, an MMA pioneer and legend, competed across three decades (the 1990s, the 2000s, and the 2010s). He was a five-time undisputed UFC champion, the first two-division champ in UFC history, and the oldest UFC titleholder at 45. Since retiring from the sport in 2011, he's remained relevant in the fight world as a broadcaster and gym owner. He currently works with PFL as a color commentator and brand ambassador.

With the 2023 PFL season kicking off on April 1, theScore spoke with Couture to preview the campaign and discuss several other hot topics, including Jon Jones capturing the UFC heavyweight title in his return and Francis Ngannou's departure from the UFC.

(Editor's note: Interview edited for length and clarity.)

theScore: The PFL season is right around the corner. What is the one thing you're most excited about in 2023?

Couture: Obviously, the first three events are going to be in Las Vegas this year, so I get to sleep in my own bed. We've given away several contracts already in the Challenger Series this year, so there's amazing, young talent coming up. And obviously, last year's Challenger season set the pace: Carlos Leal making it all the way through the regular season into the semifinals, Dilano Taylor making it all the way to the finals. So they've definitely set the bar for this year's Challenger Series fighters who are going to get a chance to fight in the regular season. We'll see how all that shapes up.

I'm excited about being in Vegas, excited about the new offices in Europe and PFL Europe kicking off this year, excited to see what happens with this pay-per-view model that they're going to be rolling out this year, as well. So definitely a big year. A lot of moves and a fast-growing organization.

theScore: There are some big free-agent signings set to compete under the PFL season format for the first time: Thiago Santos, Shane Burgos, Marlon Moraes, and Aspen Ladd. Which of those four do you have the highest hopes for?

Couture: All four of those names have a very, very bright future and can embrace this grind of a regular season, turning around every six or seven weeks and fighting again. Aspen Ladd comes to mind, especially with the new weight class at 145 pounds. I think that's a lot closer to her wheelhouse where she's not giving up weight. It's a toss-up. Any way it goes, putting yourself out there, dealing with the adversity of turning around and fighting four times in a five-month period to win this - it's no small task. I've been very impressed by seeing the athletes embrace that grind.

theScore: PFL star Kayla Harrison enters 2023 in uncharted territory following her first career loss. This year, she won't be competing under the tournament format but in individual superfights. What do you expect from her?

Couture: I think she took that loss in stride, as a champion should. She had a great attitude about it. I saw Kayla last weekend at the Arnold Classic in Ohio. She's in great spirits, she's working hard, getting back in line, looking for that matchup on pay-per-view. She wants that rematch with Larissa Pacheco. She's literally considering going into the regular season in the PFL just to get that rematch. Then her bosses were like, "Yeah, just hold your horses, we'll get you there, you're going to get a shot at Larissa." Again, in my mind, that's the right attitude. She'll come back stronger.

theScore: We could also see boxing champion Claressa Shields back in MMA this year. Does that interest you?

Couture: I've been very, very impressed with Claressa Shields and her approach to this: making a transition from being a pure boxer, trying to figure out the ground game, not shying away from putting herself in some vulnerable positions, and the potential to lose fights when you've been undefeated - a two-division champ in boxing, a two-time gold medalist in boxing. So to be able to check that kind of ego and those kinds of accolades and put herself in some new situations, I've been very, very impressed with her. I hope that she comes in this year, can make 145 pounds, and challenges herself in the regular season. We know her striking is on point. Can she be proficient enough with the new wrestling and new ground skills that she's been putting together these last two years to be effective? That's the question.

theScore: Earlier in March, Jon Jones became the third fighter to win the UFC heavyweight and light heavyweight titles after you and Daniel Cormier. Did you watch his fight with Ciryl Gane?

Couture: No, I didn't get a chance to watch it. I was working in Ohio at the Arnold and didn't watch the fights that night. I saw the outcome and saw what happened. No real surprise there. Hopefully, everything else goes smoothly with Jon and there are no anomalies. We've had some of those in the past. But he's as talented an athlete as I've ever seen. He's very, very good at what he does.

There were a lot of questions going into that fight; moving up a weight class, dealing with bigger guys when he's used to being the big guy at 205 pounds. He's a giant 205-pounder. Technically not fighting for three years, was there going to be ring rust? I thought, honestly, that Gane was going to give him a little more trouble and be a little more of a challenge for him. But Jones handled it and took it all in stride. The submission was pretty slick, and he did a great job.

theScore: What does bulldozing the No. 2 heavyweight in the world after a three-year layoff say about Jones? Many people think this win cemented him as the GOAT.

Couture: I think certainly he's in that conversation. I think some of the other extraneous stuff, in my opinion, hampers him from being the top guy or at the top of that list. I think it's about more than just what you do in the cage. It's about everything. But there's no denying the ability and the talent that Jon Jones possesses.

theScore: Generally speaking, is there a lack of respect for the history of MMA?

Couture: Certainly on UFC Fight Pass, if you dig in, you can go back and watch the old fights. There are lots of people, every time I'm in public, saying, "Oh, man, I went back and watched a whole bunch of stuff." You can go back and do that - there's just not a lot of people who do that. They're caught up in seeing what's new and what's trending and what's going on right now.

theScore: What can we do to better preserve the history of MMA and inform new fans?

Couture: It's a very individual thing. If you're a student of the game, then you're going to dig into that and check out some of those historical matchups. The trilogy with Chuck Liddell and I - there are things like that that happened in this sport that changed the sport and affected the sport's trajectory. If you're a real fan of this sport, you want to go back and look at those things and see how we got where we're at right now.

theScore: Do you think you get enough respect in the GOAT conversation?

Couture: I don't know. I don't calculate that stuff. I don't keep track of the stats or any of that stuff. That's never been what it's about for me. It's about pursuing something you're passionate about with everything that you have. I try to keep it as simple as possible. I don't worry about that stuff.

theScore: So whether someone puts you at seven or at 11, it doesn't make a difference to you?

Couture: I'm not even paying attention. I'm having a blast working with the PFL and seeing the guys at Xtreme Couture flourish and making sure that the environment there stays the way it is. We've got an amazing group of guys in there. Again, I just try to keep it as simple as possible.

theScore: You, along with many other MMA legends, were at Fedor Emelianenko's retirement fight in February. You all went into the cage after the fight. What was that moment like?

Couture: It was amazing. It was great to see all those guys all in one place, all paying tribute to Fedor and everything that he accomplished in this sport. It was a who's who. It was like old home week being around all those guys. It was great. Dan Henderson - obviously one of my best friends - and Chael Sonnen and all those guys. I got to talk to (Quinton) "Rampage" Jackson a little bit, which was kind of nice. We buried the hatchet a bit. He's still a little irritated at me for thinking he wasn't going to beat Matt Hamill in 2011. He obviously proved me wrong. But just to see those guys, to pay tribute to a great guy like Fedor, was really fun. Bellator president Scott Coker did a great job, and I respect him immensely for checking his ego and bringing all of us together.

theScore: You were at odds with the UFC back in the 2000s, and a lot of people compare Francis Ngannou's situation to yours. What are his best- and worst-case scenarios in free agency?

Couture: I think Francis is going to land on his feet. He wanted some significant things - representation and a voice for those athletes, some changes in the way that the UFC does business - and they weren't willing to embrace that. So that's on the UFC; that's not really on Francis. Does Francis end up in boxing - there's been a lot about that - or does he sign with Bellator or the PFL and stay in MMA? That's the real question. Wherever he goes, he's going to be good. He's got the work ethic. He's an amazing athlete with a ton of talent. And, most importantly, he has no ego. He's willing to do the work and put himself out there. I think he's going to be fine.

Clearly, I'm not the only one stepping up. There are a lot of guys recognizing what's going on in our sport. The lack of transparency, these crappy contracts, the abuse of their ancillary rights and their perpetuity. There are a lot of issues here. These are some of the growing pains in our sport because we are the fastest-growing sport in the world right now.

theScore: Do you think Ngannou and the UFC could reunite one day?

Couture: I think there's always a chance. I think the money that the UFC came back with was as good as anybody else is getting paid right now. Is there room to grow? Do we need transparency and to know exactly what money is coming in from each event so we can negotiate our fair value? Absolutely. What Francis asked for wasn't out of the question. We should have a voice in some of these decisions that are being made. We should have proper representation, 401(k)s, health insurance - some of those things that every other professional athlete in our society enjoys that the fighters don't get.